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[crazyxzer0]

What are your thoughts on energy suspension endlink bushings if anyone has tried them?

I'm still not satisfied with my suspension setup:

APEXi N1 99spec Coilovers
Cusco Front Strut Bar
NRG Rear Strut Bar
ASR Subframe Brace
ITR 22mm Rear Sway bar.


What else can I do to make the car feel more sharp..

I was debating on either getting endlink bushings for the front 21mm (?) sway bar to see if I can get more response from initial turn in.


Anyone tried just changing the endlink bushings and gain good results. POST!! :)

[red4]

i threw some ES bushings on my front swaybar on the old car and it definitely was an improvement. i can't say exactly how much, but going from a 13 year old rubber bushing to a brand new polyurethane bushing is going to make a difference in your handling. :TU:

you might even look at getting the entire ES kit for your car. i think it runs about $100 but it replaces almost every suspension bushing on your car. that would really tighten thing up for ya i'm sure.

[crazyxzer0]

isn't that alot work to replaced all the bushings?



Well I'm debating if I should just get a NEW swaybar in the front or...just the bushings.

[naman]

By new do you mean new and stiffer / larger? If so that can cause unwanted understeer, I would try the bushings and see how that feels first.

[Dina]

what kind of tire are you runnin and what size and profile are they that too has a big impact on how you car will handle

[crazyxzer0]

I was debating going with a GSR sway bar, or something along those lines or even an aftermarket front sway bar.



My tires is 205/50/15 Bridgestone Potenza RE750. I also run with 195/55/15 yokohama es100 on my fat fives.

I'm pretty sure the profile of the tires I use shouldnt put that big of an impact on my car as it acts similar when I'm running either tire combination.



Does anyone know the actual size of the front 1993 civic ex sway bar is?

I remmeber reading it to be 21mm vs the 24 from the integras but I can't find that right now.

[G-rat]

i believe the stock ex sway is 21...could be worng though...i remember reading about that somewhere also...but it was a while ago

[ronjdm36]

i would only go to a larger front sway if you want to correct some of the oversteer you possibly have now. if you were to offset that ex front with and itr, it would almost balance it out.

[naman]

Most likely if he has an oversteer problem, it would be snap oversteer due to the large rear bar, snap oversteer happens when you lift the throttle mid corner and the back outruns the front, most frontdrive cars do this with large rear bars a new front bar may help solve this. From what I have read and observed most American tuners try to make fwd cars handle like rwd cars by using large rear bars, and most japanese tuners use large front tires to offset the to help the understeer, and recently I have seen a combination of both comming from a company called the Progress group, I don't want to push and company but they have some of the best turning civic's out there. Anyways back to the subject, I think trying the GSR might not be a bad idea. Also "sharpness" can be helped by a more agressive alignment but it usually screws over tires.

[crazyxzer0]

Since my car is similarly tuned like a Japanese Tuner, High front spring rates, low rear spring rates + huge rear bar...I want to try their tire combination to see if that helps too. I was going to buy a set of rims 2 16 and 2 15 rims and run 215 in the frot and 195 in the rear. perhaps that will help.

As far as your observation, you are right. Americans like the rear to be more "snap-like." American spring rates usually are higher in the rear than the front where Japanese tuners are higher in the front. I also have read and watched numerous videos of Japanese tuner setups which happen to have larger tires in the front and smaller tires in the rear. I never actually tried it yet, but i want to in the future to see what it does for me.

I would like to see if the GSR sway bar does anything for me, but I seriously like to try it before I buy haha. I'll look at my friends and cry for one to test before I do anything. :)

NOTE:This car is my daily driver. I will run this car mostly on the highway from San francisco to San jose (50miles on freeway). It will just see some mountain roads maybe once every 2 weeks.

[angrychicken]

I'm going to disagree with most of what is said here but 1st off I want to compliment Zero on your awsome suspension set up, I'm envious of it and I'm surprised that your not happy with it.

Most folks will hate to here this but 90% of the time if your car is not handling correctly is due to driver's input and the car itself. Snap oversteer is rare and should not be happening with this set up. I don't know what your spring rates are but I'm assume they are pretty soft. 350F 300R maybe? Even if you were to run higher rates in the rear you should not be having oversteer probs. Japanese and American racers alike will even run upwards to >1000lbs rear spring rates!!

Zero, before you start messing around with a front sway bar you might want to consider looking into what is your problem a bit more. Are your front tires pushing? Are you actually having snap oversteer? What tire size, compounds and pressures are you using?

[crazyxzer0]

Angrychicken, there was no actual statement by me that I had snap oversteer. I just wanted to see what would make it feel more sharp. Thanks for the compliments, I appreciate it. I am content with my setup but I know there is room for improvement so why not aim for it?

Video here.
http://www.jdmcoupecouncil.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245

Check out the video I posted if you haven't already to see if I am a bad driver. you decide.. :) and PLEASE tell me what you think I am doing wrong if I am. I am always open for improvement cause no way am I a perfect driver.


Here are the setup as requested:

11kg/mm or 616lbs/in
5kg/mm or 280lbs/in

205/50/15 Bridgestone RE750 tires at 30psi in front and 35 in rear



These are also dampening adjustable. 32 clicks 16way adjustable. Right now the car is setup with 24clicks in front and 12clicks in the rear. I have tried a few setups and I like this one the most.

The only time I ever had snap oversteer in this car was when I induced it but lifting off in a parking on purpose. Beyond that I'm pretty sure I know how to control my car but I know I need more improvement on braking points and line taking. The car itself feels quite neutral with a small hint that the rear is trying to come out, but beyond that I would imagine it is almost perfect to the way I drive.



As far as what I am looking for, I am looking for a better turn-in approach. The car has a small roll in the initial turn and then hooks. It might not be apparent to my passengers but to me I notice it as it feels a little loose in the beginning of the turn. I was just wondering what kind of ways would there to be to resolve such "looseness."


sorry for all the confusion haha. Kudos to those who have great insight!

[angrychicken]

I tried watching the video, but it was playing really "choppy" so I gave up on it. I do remember watching it when you 1st posted it though, so I'll try to give you some constructive criticism from my initial thoughts. I do think your spring rates are a bit soft for performance driving, but if I understand correctly this is a car used primarily or only on the street. Correct?

Your tire pressures sound pretty good, I like to run any where from 4-7lbs higher in the rear. You can watch your wear indicator located along the sidewall to watch for roll over, or even better, mark your tires with something like a crayon or chalk. Monitor your tires to see if they are rolling over too much, if they are, add air, if they are not rolling enough, deflate.

You also mentioned your car oversteers when you lift while cornering, this sounds pretty normal unless this is @ low speeds (not greater than 80mph) and is not causing you to do a complete spin out. This is where driver improvements can be made, in most cases; you should NOT lift or brake while cornering. All braking should be done in a straight line prior to cornering with maybe a little trail braking. A rule of thumb when cornering: corners should be accelerated through, brake first while in a straight line, than gently roll on the throttle through out the corner. If lifting off your throttle during high rpms is causing the car to unbalance too much, you can always buy types of “engine braces” to hold it in place. Hondas are pretty “snappy” so there is plenty of aftermarket support to keep that engine from rocking front and back too much. This is also going to be based on your personal preference, I personally want a little oversteer in my car. I will sometimes use my left foot to tap the brakes or lift a little just prior to cornering to get a little rotation. When driving FF cars we have to be carefull not to give the front tires too much input, asking them to grip, turn and brake can be too much so we have to spread the input out.

I think you nailed it when you said you would like to improve braking points and race line etc. When I watched the video way back when, I remember thinking your acceleration, braking, and lines were off. I can't say for sure without being in there, I know road conditions and visibility are crucial. You might want to consider braking prior to the corner entry, and then rolling the throttle until your WOT, listen and feel for those front tires to make sure your not breaking them loose. If you brake earlier, your cornering will be smoother (smooth is fast), your car will stay balanced, and you can get on the throttle sooner.

I don't know what your steering is like, but hands should be placed in the 9 and 3 clock position, only on rare occasions should they be moved. Driver should be seating upright, close enough to the steering wheel to have a bend at the elbows, hands should be parallel to the shoulders and around mid-thigh. In FF cars, steering should be done PRIOR to the corner, if you’re turning your wheels with the corner, your turning them too late. Think of it like the game of chess, you should always be thinking at least 3-4 moves ahead. While going through corners, you can utilize every bit of the road, going as far right and lift to "straighten" out the corners (of course not going into the other lane). Depending on the road, speed, and conditions I like to dip my tires at the very edge of the road, sometimes going as far as to “hook” the inner sidewall of the tire to get a little more grip. I think that road you took could be taken faster, maybe almost double your current speed.

I don't condone racing or driving reckless on the street, but I admit there are some nice runs where I live that I frequent that have no traffic and you can see quite a bit ahead.
I do like the fact that you seem to be driving within a safe buffer for error, I never drive more than 80% of my capabilities on the street. I also think that it's great that you’re looking to improve yourself as a driver and upgrade your car.
My advice to you is get into sanctioned racing, there is no other way to obtain speed that you learn on the track. I've been autocrossing for just over a 1yr now, and I've never duplicated what I've done the track vs. the street. If you get into racing, have a more experienced driver take your car out with you sitting passenger, I can almost guarantee that you will be amazed by what a seasoned driver can squeeze out of your car that you can't.
I'm not saying that you don't understand your car or you can't drive, but I can use myself as an example. Last weekend I had placed 22 out of almost 80drivers and placed 2nd in my class. I was beat by another civic by >4seconds! That's an eternity in autocross. Also I'm sure there was at least 20 drivers there that could have beat me in my own car by at least 3 seconds. When I first when out and tried racing, the gap was even larger. You can't trade off seat time for much else; experience is where it's at unless your some kinda of Takumi :biggrinvb:

Hope this helps and I don't come off as trying to sound cocky. I know I went a little off-topic here when you were looking for a “crisper” feel when turning in, but hopefully there is some info you or other CC members.

[crazyxzer0]

great response!!

The biggest thing is that video was a cruise with alot of reserve because of the road is a public road. I would say it was maybe 60-70% of what I could do and I wasn't really into the run because I thought there were be more video taking during that night so I was just enjoying the run for the most part.

As for my braking, acceleration, and line taking, I know I have to improve those but during mountain road runs, I am very cautious on the limits because of like you said, road conditions etc.

I would love to sit in passenger while a seasoned' driver took my car out for a run. That would probably simply amaze me. I love learning from the passenger because I get to see everything all at once.



I do plan on going into autox and/or track someday but with the lack of time during weekends (ie. work) I can't really do much with that at this present moment. DEFINITELY in the near future I will be going to that point.






but as for the "crispness" I crave, any insight angry chicken?

[angrychicken]

Hmm...
Are you running power steering? You can always swap out your steering rack for one off an ITR for a better ratio. I believe these go for cheap, if you can find one.
How are you bushings through out your car? These could be replaced as well with something stiffer if needed.
About 2 yrs ago a budy of mine and I replaced his subframe bushing with aluminium bushings in a 240sx that I often co-drive, it made a HUGE difference. Every piece of susp rubber has been swapped out for poly or metal bushings. I don't think aluminum bushings are made for civics, but stiffer bushings will reduce "reaction" time.
You can also run a small spacer for your front tires, I currently have a small one that I use @ all times and I have future plans to use a larger one for track days.
I know that most folks on here use camber kits, I don't. If you give your car a some neg camber and a more aggressive alignment, you'll get better turn-in. You would sacrifice your tires for some wear, but as long as your not slammed to the ground, you should be o.k. I believe your tires have a fairly high tread life anyway. Cars that are too low look hot while parked, but usually don't handle well, shocks needs some suspension travel.

Firestone offers lifetime alignements for around 140ish, you can usually get 2-3 aligments a year from them if your car is not too low for their machine. You might be able to experiment a little with camber and toe to see what suits you.
Good luck!

[crazyxzer0]

Thanks for the info.



As far as my setup as of no:
The right height fender tucking..but it's not slammed. Before I slammed the car and tried to take a hairpin..omg big no no. So I had to raise the car to get a better turning. I am running power steering so perhaps a ITR steering rack might be nice.
its at 2.5 in the front and 2 in the rear.. I have no camber kit at the moment so I haven't really touched it. All toe is set to zero to have minimal tire wear.


as far as the bushings, I'll look into that but how is the ride quality with that? Compromising my daily comfort and performance is a constant battle for me and bushings might be a little too much for me especially if they are metal.

[angrychicken]

Your ride ht look o.k..
Do you have any preload on ft or rear?

Stiffer bushings will give you, well a stiffer ride.
It's up to you how much streetablilty you want to sacrifice for performance.
I think I would love to drive your car, a senior citizen who normally drives a Cadillac coupe-deville would probably not.
I'm a single dad living on a low-budget who drives a high-school kid car. Because I can't afford a daily driver and a weekend racer, I compromise quite a bit of comfort for weekend racing. I have so much rear preload that my rear "hops" when driving over bumps, my kids love it though.
I don't really have an answer for you regarding poly bushings. I have some race buddies who run insane spring rates on the street, more than I'd be willing to run. It's going to be up to you where you comfort level is and how much your willing to sacrifice. I personally don't think poly bushings would be extremely harsh.

[crazyxzer0]

I'll definitely look into redoing my whole suspension bushings. I was just looking since you said the metal ones and those are probably going to be way too stiff for me.

There is definitely preload, but I don't know the exact amount because it was done before I bought the "fairly new" coilovers from my friend.

The car I owned isn't very bouncy at all because of the soft rear spring rate. I can tolerate alot but...being that I live in san francisco, ideal roads on the street are virtually nonexistent.


btw where do you live?

[angrychicken]

btw where do you live?

Central Washington, the armpit of the PNW.

[crazyxzer0]

damn way too far from me lol. No ride for you!

[angrychicken]

Thanks for the offer though, I'm such a car slut. I'll race other people's cars whenever I get a chance.

[crazyxzer0]

you are telling me, I work as a Used Car manager's assistant at BMW of SF.. I drive all sorts of cars during work. wish they were tuned though lol.

[angrychicken]

Do you happen to have pics of your sub-frame brace off of your civic?
I'm thinking about fabricating my own and I can't really decide how to go about it. There is a place on the ends of the sub-frame that are "sunken in", where the brace mounts to pre-existing holes. I'm not sure if I should use washers here or not. Washers might cause a weak point, but it would be easier than making an offset on the brace. How is your brace set up? Is made with a notch to fill in the sub-frame?

[crazyxzer0]

there is a filler piece to allow the brace to be flat with the rest of the subframe. It pretty much mimicks the ITR subframe by filling it in with a metal filler.


you can see this is the EK asr subframe..





you can see the "filler" pieces in the picture. It is pretty much the same in the EG one but the hole placements are slightly different.

[angrychicken]

Thanks for the pic! I worked on my cardboard mock up last week and decided that it really did need a filler to spread the stress point, so I made up a trianguler piece. Hopefully this will work.

[angrychicken]

Here is some info that you might be interested in.
http://www.jdmcivic.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71172

Also regarding poly bushings, do a little research on these as well, MOST people seem to be happy with them although some folks who track their cars have had c/o premature wear in as little as 2-3yrs.

[G-rat]

:TU: for this thread.....some very good and usefull info in here:japanflag:

[Dina]

Most Deff this thread is exactly what this forum is about!

[crazyxzer0]

hmm i'll definitely look into alot of things. Right now I'm satisfied with the car. It is almost to the point where I need to fine tune the car some more. There is only so much I can do as a driver though lol.

Right now my mind is focused more on the engine now that I have pretty much almost completed my suspension for daily driver. I will just get poly endlinks for the front sway bar and call it a day.






I love the input though as suspension is what I fell in love with since power isn't necessary. :)

[angrychicken]

Re: front sway bars, a lot folks will loosen these up or taken them off entirely to get more rotation. Just some more food for thought.